国外论坛:印尼人对中国人有什么看法?

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评论翻译 原创翻译:龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译:青丘国的守护者 转载请注明出处 Ivan Gautama, Business Development at Dekoruma upxed Feb 1, 2016 Like the rest of the world, we look at China in awe. A communist country, with a billion of people, and then you can get an 8% GDP growth per year? Damn. What are we doing until now? Sleeping? One of Indonesian famous person (former CEO, former minister, a hero figures to a lot of people) Dahlan Iskan learn Chinese after he get his liver surgery there (correct me if I'm wrong). The rumor says that at first he have no interest in China and China culture, but arriving there and seeing how China has developed, put him in awe and make him learning Chinese. In the 1960s Soeharto ban Chinese Indonesian to use Chinese language, a Chinese newspaper was banned, and Chinese language teaching was also banned. This makes me included in "the lost generation", a generation of Chinese Indonesian who cannot speak Mandarin. However, Soeharto's fall and China rise around 2000s makes almost every middle-high income parents force their children to learn Chinese now. A school considered as a good school if they can provide English & Chinese language lesson. Especially in big cities like Jakarta. China's product also invade Indonesian life, there is a lot of cheap, very cheap motorcycle from China, with brand like Jialing, Kaisar, Viar, etc. Makes a huge motorcycle ownership in Indonesia. Of course this brings an increase of GDP (and debt) for Indonesian. Printed Batik from China makes a lot of Indonesian Batik craftsman lose their market (and their job). This makes me little bit sad and angry, but there is nothing we can do. I guess in the big picture, Indonesia (as a country) idolize China's growth economy. A lot of Indonesian are happy to see a news that Foxconn (a factory from China) is going to open their factory in Indonesia. I guess our IHSG (JSX Composite) an index of all stocks that trade on the Indonesia Stock Exchange always increase every time Foxconn says that he will open a factory in Indonesia. We criticize our politicians comparing Indonesia to China. We wish our government imposing a death penalty to a corrupt statesman, like what China do. We wish our government put more infrastructure development like what China do. We turn our rice field into factory to make Indonesia become an industrialized country (like China). For this one I don't really like it. We gives a vacation to China for top salesman. A middle high income family will prepare a trip to China to see China beautiful scenery. We get a lot of new rich man who import stuff from China and then sell it in Indonesia. For me, there are two countries which goes on high GDP during this past 20 years, which is India and China. In Indonesia, Indonesian knows more, a lot more, lot lot more about China's economy growth compared to India's economy growth. However this doesn't change Indonesia's opinion about Chinese Indonesian, in fact I guess China's economy growth make China Indonesian looks more wealthier, hence the social gap is still quite visible (I know this doesn't make sense, but I guess a racist Indonesian just say "look at those slanted eyes bastard, keep getting richer every day). I guess Indonesia (as a country) dreaming to be the next China. 像世界其他地方一样,我们敬畏地看待中国。 一个拥有十亿人口的国家,然后每年可以获得8%的GDP增长率? 该死的,到目前为止我们在做什么呢?还在沉睡吗? 印度尼西亚着名人物之一(前任CEO,前部长,影响广泛的英雄人物)Dahlan Iskan在接受那里肝脏手术后学习中文(如果我错了,请纠正我)。传言说,起初他对中国和中国文化没有兴趣,但到了中国,看到中国的发展,让他感到敬畏,这促使他开始学习中文。 在20世纪60年代,苏哈托禁止华裔印尼人使用中文,中文报纸被禁止,中文教学也被禁止。这使我成为“失落的一代”,一代不会说普通话的印尼华人。然而,苏哈托的失败和中国在2000年左右的崛起使得几乎所有中高收入的父母都迫使他们的孩子学习中文。 如果学校能够提供英语和中文课程,那么这所学校就被认为是一所好学校。特别是在雅加达这样的大城市。中国的产品也侵入了印度尼西亚的生活,有很多来自中国的廉价,非常便宜的摩托车,品牌有嘉陵,Kaisar,Viar等。导致印度尼西亚拥有巨大的摩托车使用者。当然,这增加了印度尼西亚的国内生产总值(和债务)。 ———————————— Tiffany Cheng Answered May 31, 2016 As an Indonesian Chinese person I have very mixed feelings about China. My feeling for China is a mixture of love and hate. I really hate China because of the human rights abuses, food safety problems, products safety problems, severe corruption problems (although Indonesia also still has corruption problems as well), products counterfeiting, social disparity problem (although Indonesia also still has social disparity problem as well), environmental damages, and the communism within China. Also, I find many Mainland Chinese people to be uncivilized, inhuman, untrustworthy, cunning, poor-mannered, dishonest, irritating, rude, and unhygienic. And I also really hate what Mao Zedong did to China, that man really ruined China, in fact if you read Mao Zedong’s biography, you will find out that all the bad things about China are all related to Mao Zedong. Then, I find China’s hegemonism policies to be really annoying, there are too many other countries hate China because of China’s hegemonism policies. On the other hand I really love China for her culture, history, cuisine, and artworks. I find Chinese history to be quite fascinating (especially the history that occurred during the Han, Tang, Song, and Ming periods). Chinese culture is also quite fascinating to me, there are just so many things that I find interesting about Chinese culture (e.g: feng shui, Confucianism, ancestor worship, ancestor recording, superstition, celebrations, etc.). Chinese artworks are really beautiful, I really love many Chinese artworks (e.g: paintings, calligraphy, carvings, embroidery, porcelain, paper cutting, knotting, handicrafts, etc.). Chinese cuisine is just so good, I especially adore Cantonese style and Teochew style Chinese cuisine. 作为一名印尼华人,我对中国的看法非常复杂。我对中国的感觉是爱与恨的矛盾体。 我真的很讨厌中国,食品安全问题,产品安全问题,严重腐败问题(虽然印尼也存在腐败问题),产品假冒,社会不平等问题(尽管印度尼西亚仍然存在社会不平等问题。 ),环境损害,以及中国的制度。此外,我发现许多中国大陆人不文明,不人道,不值得信任,狡猾,不礼貌,不诚实,烦躁,粗鲁和不卫生。然后,我发现中国的霸权政策真的很烦人,有太多的国家因为中国的霸权主义政策而恨中国。 另一方面,我真的很喜欢中国的文化,历史,美食和艺术品。我发现中国历史非常迷人(尤其是汉,唐,宋,明时期的历史)。中国文化对我来说也很有吸引力,我发现有很多关于中国文化的东西(例如:风水,儒家,祖先崇拜,祖先记录,迷信,节庆等)。中国艺术品真的很美,我真的很喜欢中国的许多艺术品(如:绘画,书法,雕刻,刺绣,瓷器,剪纸,打结,手工艺品等)。中国菜真是太好了,我特别喜欢广东风味和潮州风味的中国菜。 ———————————— Ikhsan Radjab, Citizen of Indonesia Answered May 19, 2015 China as a culture or China as a country? oh well i will just answer both China as a culture ———————————— Raden Bruri Mulianto Answered May 28, 2015 From my point of view I see the rise of china quite positive China's rise means rise of almost every single asian nation to build the 21st century as asian century, including Indonesia and even nations beyond asia. Not only that, but also more prosperity to the US and its allies. China is another alternative of world's super power. After the fall of Soviet unx, the US was the only hyper power, and it is too very very much agressive in this world. She felt like nobody is going to challenge her. Like what putin said. EVERYTHING THE US TOUCHES TURNS INTO WAR which I tend to agree based on what I see in every nations the US involved in, to quote "solve the problem". And when the US was the only hyper power, The dumb, yet arguably the world's most powerful man, President GW Bush can aggressively told the world STAND WITH US OR AGAINST US. Which I doubt Obama can say such statement with the rise of CHINA. Even US allies would rather step towards China. For example, UK, France, Germany and Australia ignored US warning to join the China's led AIIB. Even Australian Professor Hugh White made a comment about Australia stepping back from being a US ally, and then play the middle power. He said: We're gonna pretend that you're the biggest country on earth as long as possible, which we know it's not true. At the 1997 asian financial crisis, We were the hardest hit by it. And we certainly didn't like how US-owned World Bank and IMF or Japan's ADB handled the situation. They didn't really help. The attachment of closing down our weapon maker PT PINDAD or aircraft maker PT DIRGANTARA INDONESIA that potentially challenge their American counterpart, explained it. But we had no choice. You might also wanna ask brazil's point of view about IMF and World Bank. The same thing happened to their Aircraft maker (Embraer if I'm not mistaken). After seeing the US attitude after the fall of Soviet unx, We positively welcome China's Rise as an alternative to the US as long as it is peaceful. But, China's rise questionably means Good. China's claim in the South China Sea can be perceived as China's arrogance in its new found economic might. China is the farthest country to the South China Sea compared to other claimants. Yet in 2009, she draws the so callled 9 dashed line and claims the entire sea based on "history" and ignoring that Almost every traders in the past "history" also used that sea. Some also said that it is even Overlapping the territory of Indonesia. I mean there are 9 countries between Indonesia and China and both countries separated thousands of mile. Yet, China's claim makes us share border with China or Even have territorial dispute with them in Natuna. And Chinese Patrol Vessel also caught entering Arafura sea couple times. I mean that water is part of Indonesia which is the closest to Australia and which should also be the farthest of china. We don't want China to be Japan in World War II in the name of Asia. We need China to rise peacefully as an alternative to the US. We don't need China to be an Ally of the US. And we don't want China go to war against the US. And we need China to rise and to uplift other Asian Countries. 从我的观点来看,我对中国的崛起持乐观态度。中国的崛起意味着几乎每一个亚洲国家的崛起,将把21世纪建设成包括印印尼乃至亚洲以外国家的亚洲世纪。不仅如此,美国及其盟国也更加繁荣。 中国是世界超级大国的另一种选择。在苏联解体后,美国是唯一的超级大国,在这个世界上它是非常激进的。她觉得没有人敢挑战她。 就像普京所说的那样。美国所到之处皆为战乱,我倾向于根据我在美国所涉及的每个国家看到的内容达成一致,引用“解决问题”。 而当美国是唯一的超级大国,这位蠢货,但可以说是世界上最有权势的人,布什总统可以咄咄逼人地告诉全世界,要么站在美国一边,要么反对美国。 我怀疑奥巴马随着中国的崛起是否敢发表这样的声明。即便是美国的盟友也会宁愿走向中国。例如,英国,法国,德国和澳大利亚无视美国警告加入中国领导的亚投行。 对于澳大利亚从美国盟友的位置上退缩,然后砸中间周旋,澳大利亚教授休·怀特说: 我们假装你(美国)是地球上最强 大的国家,我们知道这不是真的。 在1997年的亚洲金融危机中,我们遭受的打击最为严重。 我们当然不喜欢美国拥有的世界银行和国际货币基金组织或日本的亚洲开发银行的处理方式。他们没有真正的帮助,而是关闭了我们的武器制造商(印尼国有弹药厂)或飞机制造商(印尼航天集团),这已经足以说明,他们和他们的美国同行都是一丘之貉,但我们当时别无选择。 您可能还想问巴西对国际货币基金组织和世界银行的看法。同样的事情发生在他们的飞机制造商(巴西航空工业公司,如果我没有弄错的话)。 在看到苏联解体后的美国态度后,我们积极欢迎中国的崛起作为美国的替代品,只要它是和平的。但是,中国的崛起是否意味着良好呢。中国在南中国海的主张可以被视为中国在其经济实力中的傲慢。 香港金融保卫战是经济实力的较量。在保卫战爆发前夕,香港不仅自身拥有820亿美元的外汇储备,而且身后还有中央政府1280亿美元的外汇储备,两者相加超过日本的2080亿美元,居当年世界第一位 。截至1997年12月底,香港的外汇储备为928亿美元,全球第三,仅次于日本和中国内地。 译注2:巴西经济动荡的时候,被欧美国家世界银行提供 了帮助,但是条件是开放各种市场,结果巴西航空工业公司被42亿美元的价格贱卖给了欧美个财团,此公司之前在直线客机方面占据全球一半飞份额。) ———————————— Randy Tasajaya, Born and raised here. Answered May 21, 2016 I can't answer how Indonesians in general feel about China, maybe you can find studies / books about it, but let me give you my personal view as a twenty-something years old Indonesian who grew up in Indonesia. That being said, this answer is truly subjective and consists only of my opinions. This is not a scientific answer, but still would be a high-quality answer. I think most Indonesians see China in accordance to their history. That being said, Indonesians see China as “the other ethnicity” in Indonesia other than the “indigenous (in Indonesian pribumi)”. So China is not seen like as the country “The People’s Republic of China”. There was a high racial tension between the Chinese-Indonesians and the Pribumi-Indonesians and a dark history about it, to learn more about that there are some interesting threads in Quora about it: What is it like to be a Chinese Indonesian in China? What is it like to be an ethnic Chinese in Indonesia? or a Wikipedia article: Discrimination against Chinese Indonesians While I also had the same view like that towards China, now that I'm older I see China only just as another country in the world. This racial difference is maybe still there to be seen, and when I as a Chinese-Indonesian get offended, it still hurts as a normal human being, but I just really couldn't care less. I see China as the most populous country in the world, with amazing economy and great power. And just like the rest of the world, now I think about China mostly just like what the media says about them (I don't and never have lived in China). I think it's safe to say, that most educated Indonesians now would also share the same view like mine, so they don't see China solely as a different ethnicity in Indonesia anymore. I have friends from many different countries ; just as my European friends differ from Indonesians, so do my Chinese friends. I don't feel any connection with Chinese whatsoever, and so do my other Chinese-Indonesian friends think. I'm half Chinese-Indonesian half Pribumi-Indonesian. My Pribumi side even has some Arab ancestry. Growing up in Jakarta, I have some Chinese-Indonesian friends and a lot of Pribumi-Indonesian friends. Me and my friends grow up just as Indonesians, there were no racial tensions or differentiation whatsoever. Well sometimes I encountered racial jokes, but nothing that really hurts me. I think, Indonesians who still mock Chinese-Indonesians mostly are the ones who are not so fortunate to be able to afford enough education (this doesn't mean that the reversed logic holds true, which means not all Indonesians who aren't fortunate to be able to afford education would mock Chinese-Indonesians) ; or they are just some ignorant people which exist in every country. According to a not so reliable source, my Chinese ancestors came to Indonesia in the 7th century, so there is now way I should still feel as Chinese in Indonesia, I mean after centuries have past. My grandparents are the last generation in my extended family who were still able to speak Chinese, and even they didn't feel as Chinese anymore. With this being said, not all Chinese-Indonesians have the same history like mine, some other Chinese-Indonesian fellows' ancestors may came to Indonesia just 100 years ago, or 70 years ago, etc. I think all ethnicities in Indonesia shouldn't distant themselves from one another, especially in this modern time. In all differences we should live harmonously together to achieve a better future. We have this national motto in Indonesia “Bhinneka Tunggal Ika” which pretty much means “unity in diversity”, because even among Pribumi-Indonesians there are so many different ethnicities, again Indonesia is the fourth most populous country in the world just below the USA. Right now the Governor of the capital of Indonesia, Jakarta, is of Chinese descent. I think the key to achieve our national motto is an evenly spread education and avoiding ignorance behavior at best. 我无法回答印尼人对中国的看法,也许你可以找到关于它的研究/书籍,但我这个在印尼长大,二十多岁的人可以给你看下我自己的看法。话虽如此,这个答案确实是主观的,只包括我的意见。这不是一个科学的答案,但仍然是一个高质量的答案。 我想大多数印度尼西亚人都按照他们的历史来看待中国。话虽这么说,印度尼西亚人认为中国是印度尼西亚的“其他种族”,而不是“土着(印度尼西亚的原住民)”。因此,中国不被视为“中华人民共和国”。印度尼西亚人和印度尼西亚土著之间存在着高度的种族紧张关系,以及关于它的黑暗历史,要了解更多关于的话,请看下Quora一些有趣的话题,如: 在中国成为中国印尼人是什么感觉? 在印度尼西亚成为华人是什么感觉? 或维基百科文章: 对印尼华人的歧视 虽然我对中国也有同样的观点,但现在我已经长大了,我认为中国只是世界上的另一个国家。这种种族差异仍然存在,当我作为一名印尼华人受到冒犯时,作为正常人,一样会受到伤害,但我真的不在乎。 我认为中国是世界上人口最多的国家,拥有惊人的经济和强大的力量。就像世界其他地方一样,现在我认为中国差不多就像媒体所说的那样(我不会也从未在中国生活过)。我认为可以肯定地说,大多数受过教育的印度尼西亚人现在也会像我一样拥有相同的观点,所以他们不再仅仅将中国人视为印尼的一个不同种族。 我有来自不同国家的朋友; 正如我的欧洲朋友与印尼人不同,我的中国朋友也是如此。我觉得与中国人没什么联系,我的其他印尼华人也这么认为。 我是半印尼华人半印尼原住民。我的原住民方面甚至有一些阿拉伯血统。在雅加达长大,我有一些印尼华人朋友和很多印尼原住民朋友。我和我的朋友就像印尼人一样长大,没有任何种族紧张或分化。好吧,有时我遇到了种族笑话,但没有什么真的伤害了我。 我认为,仍然嘲笑华裔印尼人的印尼人大多是那些没有能力负担得起足够教育的人(这并不意味着相反的逻辑是正确的,并不是所有没法接受教育的人都歧视印尼华人?)或者他们只是每个国家都存在的一些无知的人。 根据一个不太可靠的消息来源,我的中国祖先在7世纪来到印度尼西亚,所以我现在在印尼任然有一种中国人之感,我的意思是在几个世纪过去之后,我的祖父母是我大家族的最后一代,他们仍然能说中文,甚至他们也不再觉得自己是中国人了。有鉴于此,并非所有印尼华人都有与我相同的历史,其他一些印尼华人的祖先可能在100年前或70年前来到印度尼西亚等。 我认为印度尼西亚的所有种族都不应该彼此疏远,尤其是在现代。应该求同存异,我们应该和谐地生活在一起,以实现更美好的未来。在我们印度尼西亚有一个国家座右铭“Bhinneka Tunggal Ika”,这意味着“多样性的统一”,因为即使在印尼原住民人中也有很多不同的种族,印度尼西亚再次成为世界上第四大人口大国。 现在,印度尼西亚首都雅加达的总督是华人。我认为实现我们国家座右铭的关键是普及教育,充分避免无知行为。 —————————————— Sang Ayu, Designer Answered Jul 8, 2016 I will answer based on my view and others view that I encounter. 1.Indonesian love chinese food! beside India and middle east cuisine, chinese cuisine seeped into our local foods. It shaped the culinary world of Indonesia into what we enjoy today. There is even a say among my friend that if a restaurant frequented by chinese, it means the food there is legitimately tasty. 2. Chinese martial art & cinema. Jet li, Jacky chan and Andy lauw. This three actors was (and still is) hugely popular around the 90’s in Indonesia. Speaking about 90’s, was the era when our national tv station broadcasting a lot of chinese period drama & wuxia. i loved watching it as a kid and still cherished some of the story such as : To liong to, the impeccable twins and princess huan zu. And who can forget Return of condor heroes? Oh my…. it swept the nation as one broadcast phenomenon. newspaper even reported death of a fans because he can not deal with one gripping episode that left him dissapointed.. 3. Stingy. This is common stereotype. But stinginess also associated with male from padang ethnicity, because you know…traditionaly they dont get any inheritence and kicked out from their home after school, so they need to survive with little thing they have. ———————————— Mohamad Dody, lives in Indonesia Answered May 22, 2016 She was and still good in economy, she could able to growth above 2 digits in 2 decades, it’s a miracle, Japan (Tokugawa), the US (post industrial revolution) or country which has more than 150 million population could able to achieve that in one of two generations, while she could able to quadrupled, quintupled her economy in just a blx of an eye. However, the wake of the giant tends to spread menace to her neighbor. A modern country trying to break the status quo and draw her own borders yet forcing it by military might, she is a great threat. It is not like the USA which usually hire a part of land for their military base, she made one and claims that it was her. What she can do to Malaysia, Vietnam, Phillipines, and Indonesia (not aterritory but EEZ), whilst possessed only one so so aircraft carrier, then we could imagine what will happen if she has 10 or 20 of it. I have this view since the early 2000, whilst the commander of Indonesian Armed Forces confirm this treat after visited China in 2014 [1] Simple word, our commander visited a country and meet with their military commanders and ministry then a moment after return he allert that the country he was just visit is a threat to our security. 她过去和现在的经济状况都很好,她能够在20年内增长超过2位数,这是一个奇迹,日本(德川),美国(后工业革命)或人口超过1.5亿的国家可以在两代人的时间里实现这一目标,而她可以在眨眼之间,她的经济就增加了五倍。 然而,巨人的苏醒往往会给邻居带来威胁。一个现代化的国家试图打破现状并绘制自己的边界,却以军事力量为威逼,她是一个巨大的威胁。它不像美国通常为他们的军事基地雇用一部分土地,而她却是直接建立一个,并发表声明。 她可以对马来西亚,越南,菲律宾和印度尼西亚(不是领土,但是专属经济区)搞事,虽然只拥有一艘这样的航空母舰,但我们可以想象,如果她有10或20几艘航母,将会发生什么。 自2000年初以来,我就有了这种观点,而印度尼西亚武装部队的司令官在2014年访问中国后证实了这一观点 简单地说,我们的司令访问了一个国家,并会见了他们的司令官和部长,然后在返回后的片刻他警告说,他刚刚访问的国家对我们的安全是一个威胁。 ———————————— Nyoman Indra Kusumayasa, Good indonesian citizen and love indonesia Answered Jul 6, 2016 Why we should ask how we feel about chinese? if chinese is a racist, a lot of indonesian anchestor Came from chinese, thats Why a lot of my friend get “Hitachi” blood, hitam tapi china. And a lot of indonesian tribes have spitted eyes like palembang, kalimantan, lampung, medan, etc event i have a lot of friend doesn’t know Why the look like chinese Even they are sure they are 100% javanese, balinese, sulawesi, etc. Funny does it? As a nation, i see chinese as a great nation, with the longest historical record in the world and the biggest tribe in the world. More than 35% world population have chinese blood in their genetic including, japan, korea, Taiwan, vietnam, thailand, half indonesian, and every country in the world have china town (pecinan). Hahaha 为什么要我们对中国人的看法? 如果中国人是一个种族主义者,很多印尼人的祖先来自中国,那就是为什么我的很多朋友都会有““Hitachi”的血统,即“hitam tapi china——黑眼睛中国人”。很多印尼部族有斑点眼,像巨港,加里曼丹,楠榜,棉兰等地的人。我有很多朋友不知道为什么看起来像中国人,虽然他们肯定他们是100%爪哇人,巴厘岛人,苏拉威西人等等,这很有趣对吗? 作为一个国家,我认为中国是一个伟大的国家,拥有世界上最悠久的历史记录和世界上最大的族群。超过35%的世界人口中有中国的血统,包括日本,韩国,台湾,越南,泰国,一半印度尼西亚人,世界上每个国家都有中国城(唐人街)。哈哈哈 ———————————— A Szami Ilman, studied at Universitas Indonesia Answered Jul 3, 2016 Let's make things short here China is one of the greatest example of hardwork. Every teacher and lecturer often take China as an example of success. I also amazed with what they already achieved until today.Chinese tourists that i met all behave well and kind. Indonesian Chinese i know considered themselves as Indonesian rather than Chinese, which in this case is good and im happy about it. So, overall everything related to China is great for me and I hope Indonesians are able to work as hard as they already done.There is only one thing that i hate about China, which is...South China Sea Dispute 我们长话短说。中国是最伟大的勤劳典范之一。每一位老师和教授都常常把中国作为成功的榜样。我也对他们直到今天所取得的成就感到惊讶。 我遇到的中国游客都表现得很好,很善良。我知道印度尼西亚华人认为自己是印度尼西亚人而不是中国人,对此,我很赞同,为此我很高兴。 所以,与中国有关的一切对我来说都很好,我希望印度尼西亚人能够像他们那样努力工作。我讨厌中国的只有一件事,那就是...... 南海争议 ———————————— ———————————— Vincenzo Immanuel, Students at University of Sarcasm (2016-present) Answered Nov 13, 2017 billion of people superpower in economy large teritorial north korea’s defender cheap stuff being communist and capitalist at the same time silly accident recorded by cctv red-dominated flag 树十亿人 经济中的超级大国 巨大的领土 朝鲜的后台 便宜的东西 同时是GC主义者和资本主义者 中央电视台记录的愚蠢事故 红色主导的旗帜

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